Strategy:Tough as Nails - Revision history

Omega Tyrant at 03:15, 20 July 2024

2024-07-20T03:15:02Z

Omega Tyrant at 03:12, 20 July 2024

2024-07-20T03:12:41Z

Omega Tyrant at 06:52, 22 July 2023

2023-07-22T06:52:17Z

Omega Tyrant at 17:19, 21 July 2023

2023-07-21T17:19:23Z

Omega Tyrant at 17:17, 21 July 2023

2023-07-21T17:17:59Z

Omega Tyrant at 10:35, 21 July 2023

2023-07-21T10:35:13Z

Omega Tyrant at 10:34, 21 July 2023

2023-07-21T10:34:35Z

Omega Tyrant at 10:27, 21 July 2023

2023-07-21T10:27:50Z

Omega Tyrant: Omega Tyrant moved page Strategy:Tough as nails to Strategy:Tough as Nails: Matching cap case of ingame name

2023-06-29T13:18:43Z

Omega Tyrant moved page Strategy:Tough as nails to Strategy:Tough as Nails: Matching cap case of ingame name

Sylph at 16:07, 20 November 2021

2021-11-20T16:07:23Z

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 *One, while you're taking less damage, it's not making your armor take less damage. So say you got TaN 2 alongside Blue Armor and take an Imp fireball that deals 8 damage, your Blue Armor reduces it to 6 damage with its protection and takes that 6 damage to its durability in the process, while then your TaN gets applied and reduces it to 4 damage you actually take. Thus while TaN will extend your durability, it will not extend the durability of your armors.
-*Two, when taking plasma damage, your protection from TaN and your armor will each get rounded down separately, then damage is calculated using each rounded down value. So if you got TaN 1 alongside [[Green armor]], rather than combining together for 2 protection and being able to reduce plasma damage by 1, they each get rounded down to 0 and you end up taking the full brunt of any plasma attacks. Ultimately, this means TaN 1 does nothing to reduce damage from plasma, and investing all the way to TaN 3 has farther limited utility as it doesn't give any reduction of plasma damage.
+*Two, when taking plasma damage, your protection value of TaN and your armor will each get rounded down separately, then damage is calculated using each rounded down value separately. So if you got TaN 1 alongside [[Green armor]], rather than combining together for 2 protection and being able to reduce plasma damage by 1, they each get rounded down to 0 and you end up taking the full brunt of any plasma attacks. Ultimately, this means TaN 1 does nothing to reduce damage from plasma, and investing all the way to TaN 3 has farther limited utility as it doesn't give any additional reduction of plasma damage.
 Keep these points in mind when considering investing in Tough as Nails, as they farther reduce the usefulness of the trait. However, these points also apply to enemies with natural armor when they pick up armor, so for example a Hell Knight with Green Armor will still suffer the full damage of your [[Plasma rifle]]. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant|talk]]) 03:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

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	One final consideration is picking between Tough as Nails and [[Strategy:Ironman\|Ironman]] for a strictly defensive-boosting trait, whether as an endgame filler trait or because you actually want to increase your hit-taking ability above all else. Generally Ironman fares slightly better with extending your survival against strong hits and doesn't have half its effect ignored by plasma enemies, in addition to boosting the effective HP you get from medkits and other percentage-based healing sources. However if you do got good enough armor to reduce most hits to around 5 or less damage, an extra point of protection will allow you to take more hits than 10 extra HP will, at which point TaN is the winner between the two (though if your armor is so good you're reducing most hits to 1 damage already, than TaN would be excessive). Additionally, if you're investing in Berserker, you should unquestionably invest in TaN first; aside from the massive +60% resistances of berserk letting you reduce most attacks to that =<5 damage threshold even without good armor, increasing your max HP with Iro greatly reduces or even completely eliminates the ability for Berserker to activate from taking hits that deal a third or more of your HP in damage (and considering Berserker activation here applies the resistances of berserk before the damage from those hits are calculated, investing in Iro in these scenarios actually makes you take a lot more damage than you would have without it). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)		One final consideration is picking between Tough as Nails and [[Strategy:Ironman\|Ironman]] for a strictly defensive-boosting trait, whether as an endgame filler trait or because you actually want to increase your hit-taking ability above all else. Generally Ironman fares slightly better with extending your survival against strong hits and doesn't have half its effect ignored by plasma enemies, in addition to boosting the effective HP you get from medkits and other percentage-based healing sources. However if you do got good enough armor to reduce most hits to around 5 or less damage, an extra point of protection will allow you to take more hits than 10 extra HP will, at which point TaN is the winner between the two (though if your armor is so good you're reducing most hits to 1 damage already, than TaN would be excessive). Additionally, if you're investing in Berserker, you should unquestionably invest in TaN first; aside from the massive +60% resistances of berserk letting you reduce most attacks to that =<5 damage threshold even without good armor, increasing your max HP with Iro greatly reduces or even completely eliminates the ability for Berserker to activate from taking hits that deal a third or more of your HP in damage (and considering Berserker activation here applies the resistances of berserk before the damage from those hits are calculated, investing in Iro in these scenarios actually makes you take a lot more damage than you would have without it). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	One more note about Tough as Nails, is that its effect during damage calculation gets applied ''after'' the armor you're wearing, not in conjunction with it. This has two important impacts:
		+
		+	*One, while you're taking less damage, it's not making your armor take less damage. So say you got TaN 2 alongside Blue Armor and take an Imp fireball that deals 8 damage, your Blue Armor reduces it to 6 damage with its protection and takes that 6 damage to its durability in the process, while then your TaN gets applied and reduces it to 4 damage you actually take. Thus while TaN will extend your durability, it will not extend the durability of your armors.
		+
		+	*Two, when taking plasma damage, your protection from TaN and your armor will each get rounded down separately, then damage is calculated using each rounded down value. So if you got TaN 1 alongside [[Green armor]], rather than combining together for 2 protection and being able to reduce plasma damage by 1, they each get rounded down to 0 and you end up taking the full brunt of any plasma attacks. Ultimately, this means TaN 1 does nothing to reduce damage from plasma, and investing all the way to TaN 3 has farther limited utility as it doesn't give any reduction of plasma damage.
		+
		+	Keep these points in mind when considering investing in Tough as Nails, as they farther reduce the usefulness of the trait. However, these points also apply to enemies with natural armor when they pick up armor, so for example a Hell Knight with Green Armor will still suffer the full damage of your [[Plasma rifle]]. [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 03:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

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	So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN (again better DPS can still let them kill enemies before they get hit, while faster attacks makes it quicker to activate Berserker, and they can't even get Cerberus armor without Whizkid, while Whizkid also can allow them to improve every other statistical aspect of their equipment).		So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN (again better DPS can still let them kill enemies before they get hit, while faster attacks makes it quicker to activate Berserker, and they can't even get Cerberus armor without Whizkid, while Whizkid also can allow them to improve every other statistical aspect of their equipment).

−	One final consideration is picking between Tough as Nails and [[Strategy:Ironman\|Ironman]] for a strictly defensive-boosting trait, whether as an endgame filler trait or because you actually want to increase your hit-taking ability above all-else. Generally Ironman fares slightly better with extending your survival against strong hits and doesn't have half its effect ignored by plasma enemies, in addition to boosting the effective HP you get from medkits and other percentage-based healing sources. However if you do got good enough armor to reduce most hits to around 5 or less damage, an extra point of protection will allow you to take more hits than 10 extra HP will, at which point TaN is the winner between the two (though if your armor is so good you're reducing most hits to 1 damage already, than TaN would be excessive). Additionally, if you're investing in Berserker, you should unquestionably invest in TaN first; aside from the massive +60% resistances of berserk letting you reduce most attacks to that =<5 damage threshold even without good armor, increasing your max HP with Iro greatly reduces or even completely eliminates the ability for Berserker to activate from taking hits that deal a third or more of your HP in damage (and considering Berserker activation here applies the resistances of berserk before the damage from those hits are calculated, investing in Iro in these scenarios actually makes you take a lot more damage than you would have without it). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)	+	One final consideration is picking between Tough as Nails and [[Strategy:Ironman\|Ironman]] for a strictly defensive-boosting trait, whether as an endgame filler trait or because you actually want to increase your hit-taking ability above all else. Generally Ironman fares slightly better with extending your survival against strong hits and doesn't have half its effect ignored by plasma enemies, in addition to boosting the effective HP you get from medkits and other percentage-based healing sources. However if you do got good enough armor to reduce most hits to around 5 or less damage, an extra point of protection will allow you to take more hits than 10 extra HP will, at which point TaN is the winner between the two (though if your armor is so good you're reducing most hits to 1 damage already, than TaN would be excessive). Additionally, if you're investing in Berserker, you should unquestionably invest in TaN first; aside from the massive +60% resistances of berserk letting you reduce most attacks to that =<5 damage threshold even without good armor, increasing your max HP with Iro greatly reduces or even completely eliminates the ability for Berserker to activate from taking hits that deal a third or more of your HP in damage (and considering Berserker activation here applies the resistances of berserk before the damage from those hits are calculated, investing in Iro in these scenarios actually makes you take a lot more damage than you would have without it). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

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	So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN (again better DPS can still let them kill enemies before they get hit, while faster attacks makes it quicker to activate Berserker, and they can't even get Cerberus armor without Whizkid, while Whizkid also can allow them to improve every other statistical aspect of their equipment).		So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN (again better DPS can still let them kill enemies before they get hit, while faster attacks makes it quicker to activate Berserker, and they can't even get Cerberus armor without Whizkid, while Whizkid also can allow them to improve every other statistical aspect of their equipment).

−	One final consideration is picking between Tough as Nails and [[Strategy:Ironman\|Ironman]] for a strictly defensive-boosting trait, whether as an endgame filler trait or because you actually want to increase your hit-taking ability above all-else. Generally Ironman fares slightly better with extending your survival against strong hits and doesn't have half its effect ignored by plasma enemies, in addition to boosting the effective HP you get from medkits and other percentage-based healing sources. However if you do got good enough armor to reduce most hits to around 5 or less damage, an extra point of protection will allow you to take more hits than 10 extra HP will, at which point TaN is the winner between the two (though if your armor is so good you're reducing most hits to 1 damage already, than TaN would be excessive). Additionally, if you're investing in Berserker, you should unquestionably invest in TaN first; aside from the massive +60% resistances of berserk letting you reduce most attacks to that =<5 damage threshold even without good armor, increasing your max HP with Iro greatly reduces or even completely eliminates the ability for Berserker to activate from taking hits that deal a third or more of your HP in damage (and considering Berserker activation here applies the resistances of berserk before the damage from those hits are calculated, investing in Iro in these scenarios actually makes you take a lot more damage than you would have). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)	+	One final consideration is picking between Tough as Nails and [[Strategy:Ironman\|Ironman]] for a strictly defensive-boosting trait, whether as an endgame filler trait or because you actually want to increase your hit-taking ability above all-else. Generally Ironman fares slightly better with extending your survival against strong hits and doesn't have half its effect ignored by plasma enemies, in addition to boosting the effective HP you get from medkits and other percentage-based healing sources. However if you do got good enough armor to reduce most hits to around 5 or less damage, an extra point of protection will allow you to take more hits than 10 extra HP will, at which point TaN is the winner between the two (though if your armor is so good you're reducing most hits to 1 damage already, than TaN would be excessive). Additionally, if you're investing in Berserker, you should unquestionably invest in TaN first; aside from the massive +60% resistances of berserk letting you reduce most attacks to that =<5 damage threshold even without good armor, increasing your max HP with Iro greatly reduces or even completely eliminates the ability for Berserker to activate from taking hits that deal a third or more of your HP in damage (and considering Berserker activation here applies the resistances of berserk before the damage from those hits are calculated, investing in Iro in these scenarios actually makes you take a lot more damage than you would have without it). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

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	Then there's the fact that TaN just doesn't provide much benefit once you start fighting enemies stronger than formers and [[Imp]]s if your armor doesn't have the [[resistance]]s to already drastically reduce damage. Once [[Hell knight]]s and [[Cacodemon]]s start showing up, their projectile does 7 damage on average ''and'' ignores half your armor's [[protection]] as a result of being [[plasma]] (or ignores it entirely if you have a single point of protection), so with two levels of TaN and no other armor, they're averaging 6 damage on you, meaning a Scout/Technician and Marine will survive just one more hit from them. You got [[Red armor]] on too? You'll reduce their average damage down to 4, which looks a lot better (Scouts/Technicians can now survive five more hits and Marines will survive six more hits), but high damage rolls will still deal significant damage (at max they deal 12 damage, so you'll be reducing their damage to 9, which is still a big chunk), and you're very unlikely to have Red armor before they start appearing on harder difficulties. It gets even worse once [[Baron]]s start showing up, whose projectile deals 12 damage on average, and up to a whopping 20 at max; with no armor, two levels of TaN will reduce their average damage to 10, not enough to even let Scouts/Technicians survive an additional hit. With [[Blue armor]], their average damage is reduced to 8, Scouts/Technicians now survive just two more hits and Marines survive three more hits. With Red armor instead, you reduce their average damage to 6, so Scouts/Technicians go from dying in five hits to nine hits and Marines in five hits to ten hits, a good improvement but not enough to make you comfortable taking repeated hits from them, while Barons can hit much harder than that (reducing a max damage roll from 20 to 14 hardly makes a significant difference, and we also haven't even consider the likelihood that the Red armor will get damaged and lose protection in those calculations). We haven't even gotten to the [[Former commando]]s, [[Arachnotron]]s, the [[VMR]], and the bosses, where I can go on all day about how TaN does shit to help you survive against them without being supported by very good armor, but I think you get the picture now.		Then there's the fact that TaN just doesn't provide much benefit once you start fighting enemies stronger than formers and [[Imp]]s if your armor doesn't have the [[resistance]]s to already drastically reduce damage. Once [[Hell knight]]s and [[Cacodemon]]s start showing up, their projectile does 7 damage on average ''and'' ignores half your armor's [[protection]] as a result of being [[plasma]] (or ignores it entirely if you have a single point of protection), so with two levels of TaN and no other armor, they're averaging 6 damage on you, meaning a Scout/Technician and Marine will survive just one more hit from them. You got [[Red armor]] on too? You'll reduce their average damage down to 4, which looks a lot better (Scouts/Technicians can now survive five more hits and Marines will survive six more hits), but high damage rolls will still deal significant damage (at max they deal 12 damage, so you'll be reducing their damage to 9, which is still a big chunk), and you're very unlikely to have Red armor before they start appearing on harder difficulties. It gets even worse once [[Baron]]s start showing up, whose projectile deals 12 damage on average, and up to a whopping 20 at max; with no armor, two levels of TaN will reduce their average damage to 10, not enough to even let Scouts/Technicians survive an additional hit. With [[Blue armor]], their average damage is reduced to 8, Scouts/Technicians now survive just two more hits and Marines survive three more hits. With Red armor instead, you reduce their average damage to 6, so Scouts/Technicians go from dying in five hits to nine hits and Marines in five hits to ten hits, a good improvement but not enough to make you comfortable taking repeated hits from them, while Barons can hit much harder than that (reducing a max damage roll from 20 to 14 hardly makes a significant difference, and we also haven't even consider the likelihood that the Red armor will get damaged and lose protection in those calculations). We haven't even gotten to the [[Former commando]]s, [[Arachnotron]]s, the [[VMR]], and the bosses, where I can go on all day about how TaN does shit to help you survive against them without being supported by very good armor, but I think you get the picture now.

−	So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN (again better DPS can still let them kill enemies before they get hit, while faster attacks makes it quicker to activate Berserker, and they can't even get Cerberus armor without Whizkid, while Whizkid also can allow them to improve every other statistical aspect of their equipment). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)	+	So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN (again better DPS can still let them kill enemies before they get hit, while faster attacks makes it quicker to activate Berserker, and they can't even get Cerberus armor without Whizkid, while Whizkid also can allow them to improve every other statistical aspect of their equipment).
		+
		+	One final consideration is picking between Tough as Nails and [[Strategy:Ironman\|Ironman]] for a strictly defensive-boosting trait, whether as an endgame filler trait or because you actually want to increase your hit-taking ability above all-else. Generally Ironman fares slightly better with extending your survival against strong hits and doesn't have half its effect ignored by plasma enemies, in addition to boosting the effective HP you get from medkits and other percentage-based healing sources. However if you do got good enough armor to reduce most hits to around 5 or less damage, an extra point of protection will allow you to take more hits than 10 extra HP will, at which point TaN is the winner between the two (though if your armor is so good you're reducing most hits to 1 damage already, than TaN would be excessive). Additionally, if you're investing in Berserker, you should unquestionably invest in TaN first; aside from the massive +60% resistances of berserk letting you reduce most attacks to that =<5 damage threshold even without good armor, increasing your max HP with Iro greatly reduces or even completely eliminates the ability for Berserker to activate from taking hits that deal a third or more of your HP in damage (and considering Berserker activation here applies the resistances of berserk before the damage from those hits are calculated, investing in Iro in these scenarios actually makes you take a lot more damage than you would have). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

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 Put that all together, and it turns out that if we're wearing P-modded cerberus, that ideal three times as tough 'perfect scenario' actually occurs with surprising consistency! This is more than a little convenient, given that cerberus armor is pretty much the go-to late-game defensive goal if no fancy uniques are found!
-I suspect that by the time players are building cerberus armor regularly, they have already judged and excluded TaN from their list of go-to traits (that was certainly what happened with me, anyway!) but I feel that the two synergise well enough to ultimately put tough as nails amongst the very top of the defensive trait choices. [[User:Sylph|Sylph]] ([[User talk:Slyph|talk]]) 16:07, 20 November 2021‎ (UTC)
+I suspect that by the time players are building cerberus armor regularly, they have already judged and excluded TaN from their list of go-to traits (that was certainly what happened with me, anyway!) but I feel that the two synergise well enough to ultimately put tough as nails amongst the very top of the defensive trait choices. [[User:Sylph|Sylph]] ([[User talk:Slyph|talk]]) 17:14, 12 December 2020‎ (UTC)
 Generally if you are not at the aforementioned range where your preexisting armor can already reduce most damage to below 5, and it's not a prerequisite for your desired master trait, then Tough as Nails should be a low priority investment. Sometimes damage is just unavoidable, especially so if you're a melee build, but often for TaN to have any effect at all is a result of bad play leading to you getting hit. Additionally, nothing reduces damage more than not getting hit in the first place, so investment in [[Strategy:Hellrunner|Hellrunner]] letting you outmaneuver enemies, better dodge enemy attacks , and allowing you to outrun faster enemies you couldn't otherwise, will often do more to limit damage than TaN will. You can also instead invest in DPS-boosting traits  like [[Strategy:Finesse|Finesse]] and the various damage-boosting traits, killing enemies before they get a chance to attack prevents you from getting hit entirely (i.e. the reason why [[Strategy:Angel of Max Carnage|Angel of Max Carnage]] is widely considered to be easier than the standard game despite enemies hitting way harder there). Or you invest in [[Strategy:Intuition|Intuition]] to know exactly where enemies outside your vision are and avoid fighting them in a bad position to begin with. Not to mention that getting faster movement speed and better DPS is harder to get through equipment than just getting better protecting armor for when you do get hit.

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	Then there's the fact that TaN just doesn't provide much benefit once you start fighting enemies stronger than formers and [[Imp]]s if your armor doesn't have the [[resistance]]s to already drastically reduce damage. Once [[Hell knight]]s and [[Cacodemon]]s start showing up, their projectile does 7 damage on average ''and'' ignores half your armor's [[protection]] as a result of being [[plasma]] (or ignores it entirely if you have a single point of protection), so with two levels of TaN and no other armor, they're averaging 6 damage on you, meaning a Scout/Technician and Marine will survive just one more hit from them. You got [[Red armor]] on too? You'll reduce their average damage down to 4, which looks a lot better (Scouts/Technicians can now survive five more hits and Marines will survive six more hits), but high damage rolls will still deal significant damage (at max they deal 12 damage, so you'll be reducing their damage to 9, which is still a big chunk), and you're very unlikely to have Red armor before they start appearing on harder difficulties. It gets even worse once [[Baron]]s start showing up, whose projectile deals 12 damage on average, and up to a whopping 20 at max; with no armor, two levels of TaN will reduce their average damage to 10, not enough to even let Scouts/Technicians survive an additional hit. With [[Blue armor]], their average damage is reduced to 8, Scouts/Technicians now survive just two more hits and Marines survive three more hits. With Red armor instead, you reduce their average damage to 6, so Scouts/Technicians go from dying in five hits to nine hits and Marines in five hits to ten hits, a good improvement but not enough to make you comfortable taking repeated hits from them, while Barons can hit much harder than that (reducing a max damage roll from 20 to 14 hardly makes a significant difference, and we also haven't even consider the likelihood that the Red armor will get damaged and lose protection in those calculations). We haven't even gotten to the [[Former commando]]s, [[Arachnotron]]s, the [[VMR]], and the bosses, where I can go on all day about how TaN does shit to help you survive against them without being supported by very good armor, but I think you get the picture now.		Then there's the fact that TaN just doesn't provide much benefit once you start fighting enemies stronger than formers and [[Imp]]s if your armor doesn't have the [[resistance]]s to already drastically reduce damage. Once [[Hell knight]]s and [[Cacodemon]]s start showing up, their projectile does 7 damage on average ''and'' ignores half your armor's [[protection]] as a result of being [[plasma]] (or ignores it entirely if you have a single point of protection), so with two levels of TaN and no other armor, they're averaging 6 damage on you, meaning a Scout/Technician and Marine will survive just one more hit from them. You got [[Red armor]] on too? You'll reduce their average damage down to 4, which looks a lot better (Scouts/Technicians can now survive five more hits and Marines will survive six more hits), but high damage rolls will still deal significant damage (at max they deal 12 damage, so you'll be reducing their damage to 9, which is still a big chunk), and you're very unlikely to have Red armor before they start appearing on harder difficulties. It gets even worse once [[Baron]]s start showing up, whose projectile deals 12 damage on average, and up to a whopping 20 at max; with no armor, two levels of TaN will reduce their average damage to 10, not enough to even let Scouts/Technicians survive an additional hit. With [[Blue armor]], their average damage is reduced to 8, Scouts/Technicians now survive just two more hits and Marines survive three more hits. With Red armor instead, you reduce their average damage to 6, so Scouts/Technicians go from dying in five hits to nine hits and Marines in five hits to ten hits, a good improvement but not enough to make you comfortable taking repeated hits from them, while Barons can hit much harder than that (reducing a max damage roll from 20 to 14 hardly makes a significant difference, and we also haven't even consider the likelihood that the Red armor will get damaged and lose protection in those calculations). We haven't even gotten to the [[Former commando]]s, [[Arachnotron]]s, the [[VMR]], and the bosses, where I can go on all day about how TaN does shit to help you survive against them without being supported by very good armor, but I think you get the picture now.

−	So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN. [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)	+	So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN (again better DPS can still let them kill enemies before they get hit, while faster attacks makes it quicker to activate Berserker, and they can't even get Cerberus armor without Whizkid, while Whizkid also can allow them to improve every other statistical aspect of their equipment). [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:27, 21 July 2023
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	Put that all together, and it turns out that if we're wearing P-modded cerberus, that ideal three times as tough 'perfect scenario' actually occurs with surprising consistency! This is more than a little convenient, given that cerberus armor is pretty much the go-to late-game defensive goal if no fancy uniques are found!		Put that all together, and it turns out that if we're wearing P-modded cerberus, that ideal three times as tough 'perfect scenario' actually occurs with surprising consistency! This is more than a little convenient, given that cerberus armor is pretty much the go-to late-game defensive goal if no fancy uniques are found!

−	I suspect that by the time players are building cerberus armor regularly, they have already judged and excluded TaN from their list of go-to traits (that was certainly what happened with me, anyway!) but I feel that the two synergise well enough to ultimately put tough as nails amongst the very top of the defensive trait choices.	+	I suspect that by the time players are building cerberus armor regularly, they have already judged and excluded TaN from their list of go-to traits (that was certainly what happened with me, anyway!) but I feel that the two synergise well enough to ultimately put tough as nails amongst the very top of the defensive trait choices. [[User:Sylph\|Sylph]] ([[User talk:Slyph\|talk]]) 16:07, 20 November 2021‎ (UTC)
		+
		+	Generally if you are not at the aforementioned range where your preexisting armor can already reduce most damage to below 5, and it's not a prerequisite for your desired master trait, then Tough as Nails should be a low priority investment. Sometimes damage is just unavoidable, especially so if you're a melee build, but often for TaN to have any effect at all is a result of bad play leading to you getting hit. Additionally, nothing reduces damage more than not getting hit in the first place, so investment in [[Strategy:Hellrunner\|Hellrunner]] letting you outmaneuver enemies, better dodge enemy attacks , and allowing you to outrun faster enemies you couldn't otherwise, will often do more to limit damage than TaN will. You can also instead invest in DPS-boosting traits like [[Strategy:Finesse\|Finesse]] and the various damage-boosting traits, killing enemies before they get a chance to attack prevents you from getting hit entirely (i.e. the reason why [[Strategy:Angel of Max Carnage\|Angel of Max Carnage]] is widely considered to be easier than the standard game despite enemies hitting way harder there). Or you invest in [[Strategy:Intuition\|Intuition]] to know exactly where enemies outside your vision are and avoid fighting them in a bad position to begin with. Not to mention that getting faster movement speed and better DPS is harder to get through equipment than just getting better protecting armor for when you do get hit.
		+
		+	Then there's the fact that TaN just doesn't provide much benefit once you start fighting enemies stronger than formers and [[Imp]]s if your armor doesn't have the [[resistance]]s to already drastically reduce damage. Once [[Hell knight]]s and [[Cacodemon]]s start showing up, their projectile does 7 damage on average ''and'' ignores half your armor's [[protection]] as a result of being [[plasma]] (or ignores it entirely if you have a single point of protection), so with two levels of TaN and no other armor, they're averaging 6 damage on you, meaning a Scout/Technician and Marine will survive just one more hit from them. You got [[Red armor]] on too? You'll reduce their average damage down to 4, which looks a lot better (Scouts/Technicians can now survive five more hits and Marines will survive six more hits), but high damage rolls will still deal significant damage (at max they deal 12 damage, so you'll be reducing their damage to 9, which is still a big chunk), and you're very unlikely to have Red armor before they start appearing on harder difficulties. It gets even worse once [[Baron]]s start showing up, whose projectile deals 12 damage on average, and up to a whopping 20 at max; with no armor, two levels of TaN will reduce their average damage to 10, not enough to even let Scouts/Technicians survive an additional hit. With [[Blue armor]], their average damage is reduced to 8, Scouts/Technicians now survive just two more hits and Marines survive three more hits. With Red armor instead, you reduce their average damage to 6, so Scouts/Technicians go from dying in five hits to nine hits and Marines in five hits to ten hits, a good improvement but not enough to make you comfortable taking repeated hits from them, while Barons can hit much harder than that (reducing a max damage roll from 20 to 14 hardly makes a significant difference, and we also haven't even consider the likelihood that the Red armor will get damaged and lose protection in those calculations). We haven't even gotten to the [[Former commando]]s, [[Arachnotron]]s, the [[VMR]], and the bosses, where I can go on all day about how TaN does shit to help you survive against them without being supported by very good armor, but I think you get the picture now.
		+
		+	So in conclusion, Tough as Nails will never be useless, but is usually not a trait you should prioritize investing in, while investing in traits that improve your movement speed, DPS, or give other utilities will often reduce damage more than TaN will, and so thus only be picked as a filler trait at the end of the game after you gotten everything else more valuable. You also likely won't be able to get a very good armor with high resistances to get serious mileage out of TaN, like the aforementioned [[Cerberus armor]], until it's already late into the game, so even in that case TaN will still not be a priority investment. It additionally should be noted that TaN seems tantalizing for melee builds, due to the unavoidable damage of melee combat, and how [[berserk]] gives +60% resistance to everything to get them into that sweet zone for TaN without needing very good armor, but [[Strategy:Blademaster\|Blademaster]] blocks it and [[Strategy:Malicious Blades\|Malicious Blades]] can't get [[Strategy:Berserker\|Berserker]] to easily get berserked, so that rules out those two investing in TaN. This leaves [[Strategy:Vampyre\|Vampyre]], but even a Vampyre, aside from the obvious [[Strategy:Brute\|Brute]], will generally want to prioritize investing in Finesse and [[Strategy:Whizkid\|Whizkid]] before investing in TaN. [[User:Omega Tyrant\|Omega Tyrant]] ([[User talk:Omega Tyrant\|talk]]) 10:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

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 {{infostrat switch}}
-Tough as nails gives a character a flat +1 armor. Generally speaking, this tends to a weaker defensive trait than jellrunner, but choosing between the two involves a lot more consideration than just the general case.
+Tough as nails gives a character a flat +1 armor. Generally speaking, this tends to a weaker defensive trait than hellrunner, but choosing between the two involves a lot more consideration than just the general case.
 Situations in which a player could benefit from a little extra armor, but has the option of retreating to somewhere safer, are fairly common. In such circumstances hellrunner shines. A much less common situation is that which sees a player under fire, with nowhere to retreat to. Less common, though, doesn't necessarily mean less important to preclude. In fact, we're all *so* familiar with that unlucky caves level that we enter surrounded by arachnotrons, or the panic-inducing start in a room with a pod of mancubi, revenants, and archviles - all that's required is another pod on the other side of the nearest door, and the game could abruptly end! Sometimes our only recourse is just to kill the enemies as quickly as possible, and in those cases hellrunner will offer very little protection.